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Christopher Multsanti
Bluestar Airlines
10
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Posted - 2015.10.01 08:15:52 -
[1] - Quote
As the title states this is a suggestion for the removal of high sec ganking specifically looking at the current absurd situation that allows freighters to be ganked in high sec without the ability to defend yourself.
You are safer taking a freighter through null sec than high sec because you have the ability to control the travel route and kill any hostiles before they can attack your freighter.
Everyone would think you were crazy if you took your freighter through high sec with a war dec active but, once again, it is safer than without one because you can spot and kill any hostiles before they attack your freighter.
Even if you do everything right (do not auto pilot and triple web your freighter) you can still die without having the ability to defend yourself.
Just ask Grath The Meta Show @ 25:20.
Preemptive counter arguments:
Concord is a deterrent only they are not there to protect you from people
A: Things change. Geddons used to be able to fit 8 heat sinks, Domis used to have 15 heavy drones, Concord used to be a deterrent, See how easy it is to change things.
People will just move stuff in NPC corps and won't be vulnerable at all
A: I have a few ideas on how to fix this but am open to suggestions.
Dude, don't auto pilot your freighter and you won't get ganked!
A: Manually piloting and triple webbing your freighter won't always save you, see above link
I have never lost a freighter in x number of years hauling stuff in empire, you people are just doing it wrong
A: You're just lucky, it will happen to you at some point
LOLOLOL You just got ganked in high sec, How much did you lose???
A: I can't fly freighters on any of my characters
And so you understand the situation, Enjoy the ganks
Let the freighter flames begin. |
Christopher Multsanti
Bluestar Airlines
10
|
Posted - 2015.10.01 09:24:15 -
[2] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:Christopher Multsanti wrote:As the title states this is a suggestion for the removal of high sec ganking specifically looking at the current absurd situation that allows freighters to be ganked in high sec without the ability to defend yourself. I am confused; when did CCP take away the ability for you to defend yourself? If you want to protect your assets, you are suppose to provide for your own defense: that is a core tenet of this game. The developers of this game have made this crystal clear. Freighters are giant loot pinatas that are very good at carrying a large amount of cargo, and quite poor at defending themselves. If you insist on using them, you probably should bring a defense fleet to protect them. If you don't want (or can't) defend them, maybe you should consider using an alternative hauler to carry your goods, one that is more adept at defending itself. So, -1.
It seems both you and falcon are confused. Concord is not a deterrent in the same way the police are in real life. Because if you carjack someone in real life you got jail for many months of your life. In Eve you are wanted for 5 minutes then the police just let get back to your criminal. So bad analogies are bad.
The only form of defence you have is if you web your freighter into warp before you get bumped and ganked. If you believe there is any other form of defence then you are mistaken. |
Christopher Multsanti
Bluestar Airlines
10
|
Posted - 2015.10.01 09:29:46 -
[3] - Quote
Seliah wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're not actually suggesting anything, are you ?
I am suggesting the removal of high sec ganking. There are a few ways it can be done but I don't work for CCP I don't presume to have all the answers. I am just pointing out something that, to me, looks broken in terms of game mechanics.
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Christopher Multsanti
Bluestar Airlines
10
|
Posted - 2015.10.01 09:43:44 -
[4] - Quote
afkalt wrote:You can kill the bumper.
Whilst I do think the mechanics are pants on head stupid, it's very necessary for the ecosystem.
You're right, the mechanics are crazy and you're right you can kill the bumper, but for that argument to be valid it means that every freighter needs to be escorted by a support fleet in high sec, which in itself is kinda pants on the head stupid.
I am not going to search for dev blogs or anything so I may be incorrect when i say what i'm about to say but i'm pretty sure when CCP released Freighters they didn't come with an exception that they would need to escorted everywhere in high sec (low and null sec is a different matter).
There are also plenty of examples of CCP letting player actions influence game play against intended design, (jet can mining for one) But freighter ganking has gone way past the line imo.
I have no problem with freighters being killed, I love it. But freighters should be able to get their corp or alliance to escort and pro actively protect them. You can make market hubs only accessible through low secs or make everyone be war decable, there are plenty of other ways to make freighters valid targets than the way it currently happening. |
Christopher Multsanti
Bluestar Airlines
10
|
Posted - 2015.10.01 09:52:13 -
[5] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:Of course there are other forms of defense. Bumpers can be ganked. Freighters can be remote repaired. Gank ships can be ECMed or shot with lasers. CCP Falcon confirmed that you are suppose to bring said defenses.
Eve is a game about tradeoffs. No ship or fit is good at everything. Freighters are very good at hauling, but the cost of that is your are vulnerable to gankers and bumpers. You are asking CCP to change the game to make freighters not only the best ship for cargo capacity, but now the only ship in the game immune to attack in highsec. Why would anyone fly anything else?
If you want the benefits of being able to carry a lot, they you have to accept and mitigate the risk someone will gank you. That is the tradeoff for using freighters in the game. There are haulers, like the DSTs, that are immune to bumping and highly resistant to ganking. The tradeoff for that? Reduced cargo capacity.
Choose the tool that is best for your hauling needs. Do not come here and beg CCP to make your ship do everything so you get the best of both worlds all the time. You know, actually play the game?
This is the part where you are not going to like my argument. I am asking for every ship to not be attackable in high sec unless you have a war. There are plenty of places in eve for non consensual pvp (wh space, null and low sec AND high sec if you have a war active). If you want to kill people in high sec declare war.
I'm just using freighters as an extreme example. |
Christopher Multsanti
Bluestar Airlines
10
|
Posted - 2015.10.01 09:58:21 -
[6] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote: Bumpers can be ganked. Freighters can be remote repaired. Gank ships can be ECMed or shot with lasers.
The video i posted shows 40 catalysts killing a freighter in less than 30 seconds. None of things you posted will be able to stop that from happening in that time frame.
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Christopher Multsanti
Bluestar Airlines
10
|
Posted - 2015.10.01 10:01:10 -
[7] - Quote
afkalt wrote:It's a capital....Go ask and non-high sec dweller the life expectancy of an unescorted capital....
You really should learn to read before you post things that make you look like a total idiot....
Christopher Multasnti wrote:Freighters didn't come with an exception that they would need to escorted everywhere in high sec (low and null sec is a different matter). |
Christopher Multsanti
Bluestar Airlines
10
|
Posted - 2015.10.01 10:02:33 -
[8] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Christopher Multsanti wrote:Black Pedro wrote: Bumpers can be ganked. Freighters can be remote repaired. Gank ships can be ECMed or shot with lasers.
The video i posted shows 40 catalysts killing a freighter in less than 30 seconds. None of things you posted will be able to stop that from happening in that time frame. You mean people have gathered together, in an MMO, their numbers have overwhelmed a solo pilot and you're surprised about this?
Not in the slightest. I'm pretty sure I never said player behaviour is the problem
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Christopher Multsanti
Bluestar Airlines
10
|
Posted - 2015.10.01 10:17:28 -
[9] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Christopher Multsanti wrote:Mag's wrote:You mean people have gathered together, in an MMO, their numbers have overwhelmed a solo pilot and you're surprised about this? Not in the slightest. I'm pretty sure I never said player behaviour is the problem So far, you've failed to show any problem.
I have put forth an argument in which no one can defend themselves against a bumper and 40 catalysts. An argument which you cannot counter and now you claim there is no problem. GG you!
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Christopher Multsanti
Bluestar Airlines
10
|
Posted - 2015.10.01 10:22:11 -
[10] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:Wall of text
Killing in high sec might be a point i'll concede won't ever stop happening. You know what, keep it in there if you feel the sandbox might be diluted beyond the point of no return without it.
But the point still stands, your suggestions of defence against ganks are no defence at all.
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Christopher Multsanti
Bluestar Airlines
10
|
Posted - 2015.10.01 10:34:38 -
[11] - Quote
Mag's wrote:I have to ask, when did you buy that character?
Mag's my friend I created this char 3 months before you did and almost a full year before you joined MASS. And probably like you, I have done it all. High sec ganked, been ganked, scammed (never been scammed), Pirated, killed BOB haulers in delve, FC'ed. I have done the lot.
So please tell me how you would defend your freighter against a bumping mach and 40 catalysts? Cos If I am missing some fundamental I would like to know. |
Christopher Multsanti
Bluestar Airlines
10
|
Posted - 2015.10.01 10:51:46 -
[12] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:Christopher Multsanti wrote:Mag's wrote:Christopher Multsanti wrote:Mag's wrote:You mean people have gathered together, in an MMO, their numbers have overwhelmed a solo pilot and you're surprised about this? Not in the slightest. I'm pretty sure I never said player behaviour is the problem So far, you've failed to show any problem. I have put forth an argument in which no one can defend themselves against a bumper and 40 catalysts. An argument which you cannot counter and now you claim there is no problem. GG you! so whats your solution to this are you saying that people cant bring the right amount of ships to kill something within a given time? is efficiency actually a problem? how do you fix being efficient?
Do you read what you are quoting?
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Christopher Multsanti
Bluestar Airlines
10
|
Posted - 2015.10.01 10:58:38 -
[13] - Quote
Mag's wrote:So you you bought it back, after selling it in 2006 to Shooq? Oh and Mag's wasn't my first character, another was but I sold him.  You have a friend that scouts and webs you. A big part of defence, is never allowing the enemy a chance. Then if you happen to be very very unlucky and do it wrong, you can use your friend as a warp point when being bumped. You can also bring more friends along and have them rep your ass, or ECM/shoot the -10 gankers when they show up. Or you can have friends shoot the bumper. Either way, that's called defending yourself. But as with everything in Eve, nothing is guaranteed.
We all don't feel the need to sell our chars, I don't know who shooq is but you are clearly misinformed.
Having logis could be a valid counter but I am not familiar with them so how many logis would you need to rep 28k DPS? |
Christopher Multsanti
Bluestar Airlines
10
|
Posted - 2015.10.01 11:13:40 -
[14] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Christopher Multsanti wrote:
We all don't feel the need to sell our chars, I don't know who shooq is but you are clearly misinformed.
Having logis could be a valid counter but I am not familiar with them so how many logis would you need to rep 28k DPS?
Shooq offered 3.2 billion buyout to close the auction, you did 4 minutes later.I just wondered when you bought it back, seeing as you claim to be the original owner and all. It's not about tanking it all, it's about breaking their chance of a successful gank by changing the odds. They need to apply a set amount of damage before concord arrives, you just need to defer some of that. Why I need to explain this to a 2004 player, is rather odd tbh.
That character was called Tavernier, as stated in the very first line of that post. An alt given to be a friend that I no longer needed.
Did you really just spend your time searching for that thread?
But sorry, you didn't answer my question, how many logis and support ships do you need to fly a freighter through high sec safely? |
Christopher Multsanti
Bluestar Airlines
10
|
Posted - 2015.10.01 11:17:14 -
[15] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:Christopher Multsanti wrote:I have put forth an argument in which no one can defend themselves against a bumper and 40 catalysts. An argument which you cannot counter and now you claim there is no problem. GG you! yes i read this, there is no problem, its merely people being efficient to complete a task, its not rocket science
Again no. The part I highlighted and underlined was the part I suggested you read which was: Player behavior is not the issue.
Not being able to defend your freighter against those 40 man fleets is the issue. i.e Game Mechanics. |
Christopher Multsanti
Bluestar Airlines
10
|
Posted - 2015.10.01 11:36:08 -
[16] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Ahh indeed it was. My bad, I took the current rules and applied them retrospectively. Forgetting things were different back then. I was wrong, sorry.
Fair enough.
Mag's wrote:I did answer your question, I'm not going to fill in the blanks here for you. You made a claim and have yet to back it up. I have given you more than one option.
Look you have a choice. You either deem your haul to be worth having friends to help, or you do it solo. That's your decision to make, but that does not mean the ability to defend yourself is lacking, or missing completely.
Eve has always been about choices, whether is be fittings or how many you bring to a fight. You don't always make the right one.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree then. I fully understand the risks of eve and non consensual pvp.
In null sec space you can make sure there are no neutral/hostiles on the travel route of your freighter before you even undock it. You cannot do that in high sec space.
In null sec you can actively engage and kill any neutral/hostiles on your travel route before they engage you. You cannot do that in high sec space.
In high sec space you need to have your freighter be attacked before you can protect it. Again, not the case in null sec.
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Christopher Multsanti
Bluestar Airlines
10
|
Posted - 2015.10.01 12:25:11 -
[17] - Quote
Khan Wrenth wrote:It's threads like these that make me happy certain emojis  exist. +well written follow up post
Why thank you kind sir. I appreciate the time you have taken to write that out and while I don't agree with all of it I do enjoy your love of pirating.
Please see my video from Pirating in 2005 (in which you will see a 8 Ogre Thorax killing a lot of things. You will also get to see what a 15 Zerker Domi looks like) Oh them were the days.
I just uploaded it you tube for all my lovely eve peeps so you can see someone call me a, and I quote:
"A MUTHAF**KN GANKER F**K STIX"
He also says and I quote again:
"JAN, WATCHOUT FOR CHRIS, HELL F**K YOU WITH A SMILE ON HIS FA**OTY FACE"
Sorry for the caps, but I was quoting him exactly ;)
Enjoy
PS: Pardon for the bad resolution, its ten years old now lol |
Christopher Multsanti
Bluestar Airlines
10
|
Posted - 2015.10.01 13:23:14 -
[18] - Quote
Most of the responses in this thread are incredibly naive and simplistic.
One response is even hope for no bubbles in 0.0, i mean lol wtf!!?? srsly man put down the bong.
Kenrailae wrote:Ganking needs to stay.
But the Mechanics do need to be more balanced.
Best post yet tbh.
Pirating in 2005
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Christopher Multsanti
Bluestar Airlines
10
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Posted - 2015.10.01 14:18:26 -
[19] - Quote
Zan Shiro wrote:
I was being optimistic and giving a theoretical break. You are screwed most likely yes. Try to be positive get called out for it. My usual jaded self I get called jaded and bitter. Can't win here really.
And its your recreational habits we have to wonder about really. 40 on 1....stuff dies. You are saying this is unfair to freighters. Please do tell, what ship is fairing any better here? In empire since this seems to be the focus.
40 ships have decided my kronos must die, it will die. In bastion even. And I actually run a real tank for defense out of bastion (not glass cannon rely on bastion effect tanking style).
I will even let you dual tank an orca. I was partial to shield tank mids and hull tank lows. Not easy to kill...but not invincible either.
Again seriously, Bong down.
I do not wonder why stuff dies 40 to 1 and have never said that freighter should survive any sort of attack never mind 40 v 1.
The point i'm making is that in null sec or low sec you would never ever put your freighter in harms way in the first place. If there is a 40 man gang camping your travel route then you send a friendly fleet to kill them. Once the way is clear then you move your freighter with scouts.
I have never said a freighter should fly around solo in null or low sec. That is crazy.
I added a tldr in my op to just be clear about what i am saying.
Pirating in 2005
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Christopher Multsanti
Bluestar Airlines
10
|
Posted - 2015.10.01 14:55:40 -
[20] - Quote
Cidanel Afuran wrote:Christopher Multsanti wrote:
The point i'm making is that in null sec or low sec you would never ever put your freighter in harms way in the first place. If there is a 40 man gang camping your travel route then you send a friendly fleet to kill them. Once the way is clear then you move your freighter with scouts.
In HS you never ever put your freighter in harms way in the first place too. Why is that super magically different for HS in your mind? How do I have scouts again?
Not all gankers are -10. Not every high sec gank can be seen coming.
Pirating in 2005
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Christopher Multsanti
Bluestar Airlines
10
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Posted - 2015.10.01 14:58:34 -
[21] - Quote
Cidanel Afuran wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:You're in HS... You're in harm's way when you undock in that freighter from the get go.
You know what I mean. If you don't have a scout alt and a webbing alt, don't use a freighter. Period. Don't jump into systems where you know gankers will be waiting. And if you can't figure out where gankers will be, don't use a freighter. Red frog has something like a 99% completion rate. What are they doing that the OP isn't?
I don't fly freighters, I use Blockade runners to move stuff in empire.
Pirating in 2005
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Christopher Multsanti
Bluestar Airlines
10
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Posted - 2015.10.01 15:00:50 -
[22] - Quote
Woozlez wrote:Look. CCP is profiting from accepting all the people who got banned from every other MMO for griefing and other such jerkish behavior, and turning them into "content." CCP has to find a balance between these people and others who have some sense of honor, and that's what they've done in high sec.
It's life.
Troll posts are best posts!
Pirating in 2005
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Christopher Multsanti
Bluestar Airlines
10
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Posted - 2015.10.01 15:05:58 -
[23] - Quote
Cidanel Afuran wrote:Christopher Multsanti wrote:
Not all gankers are -10. Not every high sec gank can be seen coming.
There are more ways to check for gankers than looking for -10s.... Again, how exactly does red frog have a 99% success rate in HS if ganking is 'unavoidable'?
You understand how percentages work yes?
If red frog run 1000 Freighter runs a month then they lose 10 Freighters a month!
Pirating in 2005
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Christopher Multsanti
Bluestar Airlines
10
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Posted - 2015.10.01 15:32:25 -
[24] - Quote
Zimmer Jones wrote:I can't help but call this a troll thread. That being said it is one of the best this month, and last month too.
The art of trolling is almost lost, and this is art. A serious and unpopular topic, a call to rational debate in a framing of minimal absurdity( sorry but the whole no nonconsentual highsec pvp was too obvious a giveaway) on a topic that is usually just a rant topic.
I salute your efforts, they were not wasted and I was entertained. To prove it I'll toss in my regular bad ideas.
That said, ganking mechanics could use some tweaking, as a fair bit is emergent gameplay that could be adopted and adapted. Actual ramming ships for the bumping, and dropping the mass of bs(not to mention scaling ships models properly).
As for catys, well tbh theyre perfect, but I'd like for other dessies to be given a few all buffs, get counter ganking dessies or something.
End of terribad idea, for this post at least
Why thank you kind sir. /me tips hat
Pirating in 2005
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Christopher Multsanti
Bluestar Airlines
10
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Posted - 2015.10.01 17:46:14 -
[25] - Quote
Mag's wrote:[quote=Kenrailae] Whilst that freighter is exposed for 45 seconds, at no point is it likely the faction police will turn up and attack. Unless you're carry illicit goods of course.
Now it sounds like you're just trolling. Who the Actual F**ck is talking about freighters being shot by faction police???
You're another one who needs to step away from the bong my friend.
Pirating in 2005
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Christopher Multsanti
Bluestar Airlines
10
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Posted - 2015.10.01 17:50:12 -
[26] - Quote
Leto AramausA ship that is undocked and traveling is exposed to risk more than a ship that is docked most of the time.[/quote wrote:
How in the actual **** is that "clunky mechanics" ??
Are you trolling?
"Imbalance in exposure"?? NO SH*T.
Seriously get a brain.
You also. Bong Down.
Clunky mechanics are the fact you can take down a freighter in high sec and that freighter has less defensive options than one in null sec.
Re-read OP and come back. Then disagree with the above line with a straight face. I dare you. I Double dare you.
Pirating in 2005
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Christopher Multsanti
Bluestar Airlines
10
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Posted - 2015.10.01 17:54:24 -
[27] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Christopher Multsanti wrote:Mag's wrote:[quote=Kenrailae] Whilst that freighter is exposed for 45 seconds, at no point is it likely the faction police will turn up and attack. Unless you're carry illicit goods of course. Now it sounds like you're just trolling. Who the Actual F**ck is talking about freighters being shot by faction police??? You're another one who needs to step away from the bong my friend. Take a breath and read it again in context. I'm talking about what most gankers have to deal with. Thanks anyway. 
But all really know that faction police are not an issue for someone in a catalyst. And not an issue at all if you're not -10.
Pirating in 2005
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Christopher Multsanti
Bluestar Airlines
10
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Posted - 2015.10.01 18:23:39 -
[28] - Quote
Leto Aramaus wrote:Christopher Multsanti wrote:Leto AramausA ship that is undocked and traveling is exposed to risk more than a ship that is docked most of the time. How in the actual **** is that "clunky mechanics" ?? Are you trolling? "Imbalance in exposure"?? NO SH*T. Seriously get a brain. You also. Bong Down. Clunky mechanics are the fact you can take down a freighter in high sec and that freighter has less defensive options than one in null sec. Re-read OP and come back. Then disagree with the above line with a straight face. I dare you. I Double dare you.[/quote wrote:
That wasn't a response to you OP... but this is.
I read the OP. I thought it was a giant whine-filled baby-fest.
A freighter, by itself, has NO defensive actions except one; Warp away.
Let's break this down for you.
A freighter in hi-sec can scout gates to look for camps.
A freighter in low/null can also scout gates to look for camps.
A freighter in hi-sec can have a friend or alt web him into warp faster.
A freighter in low/null can also have a friend or alt web him into warp faster.
A freighter in hi-sec can have a fleet of friendly escorts that can remote repair him.
A freighter in low/null can also have a fleet of friendly escorts to remote repair him.
Hmmm I'm running out of ideas... what can be done in lowsec that can't be done in hi-sec?
Ah yes, a freighter's escort fleet (assuming he has one) can pre-emptively shoot any gate campers in low/null without being destroyed by concord.
So how is this "clunky" mechanics? I'm pretty sure you and Kenrailae are the same person yea? Because you keep using that word, "clunky". Without giving any meaningful explanation for what you mean.
What mechanics are you referring to? What is "clunky"?
Use your words. Make an argument. Better yet, make a SUGGESTION for a feature or idea.
I actually agree that there's a problem with freighter-ganking. However, you are so bad at making any kind of coherent argument, all I can think when reading this thread is "what? go away crybaby".
When I read this entire post all I hear is please don't take away my gravy train.
Here is suggestion, You're gonna be sorry you asked for it:
Concord now has logistics, the most op logistics ever created preventing any amount of DPS from killing a freighter.
As for me and him being the same person, just lol. GG you.
Pirating in 2005
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Christopher Multsanti
Bluestar Airlines
11
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Posted - 2015.10.01 20:29:33 -
[29] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:The only time I have seen a Freighter in nullsec (not a Jump Freighter, but straight Freighter) we killed it.
Actually, I tackled it with my interceptor as I passed it in travel just by chance. About 5 minutes later my fleet arrived (had already stood down from our roam, so quickly reformed) and we began killing it. However we were interrupted by a larger fleet, who also spotted it in travel, and they got the final kill and loot.
Freighters don't travel in null or low generally. The risks are much greater.
There might be situations within an Alliance's sov space where they feel secure enough to get a freighter to and from a jump bridge, but Freighters flying through null/low and using gates just doesn't happen because they are not very defendable. Seriously, any alliance big enough to defend one just uses a jump freighter, which is quicker, so less boring for the support, and much safer.
Well done, you tackled a freighter in null sec and let someone else kill it.
Like most people, you are missing the point. If jump freighters didn't exist, which they never used to, and you had to take a freighter 10 jumps through your own alliance space. You would still have better defensive options than you would in high sec.
You can actively kill hostiles before they get anywhere near your freighter in null sec. You do not have that option in high sec.
Pirating in 2005
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Christopher Multsanti
Bluestar Airlines
11
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Posted - 2015.10.01 22:57:06 -
[30] - Quote
Vic Jefferson wrote:Echoing many others, if they have 40 players and you have one, they should win. It would be a hilariously terrible game if the efforts of one player could trump 40 coordinated ones.
You're right your just an echo of what other people say. Why even post? I guess people who like want to be CSM like the sound of their own voice.
If your freighter has a support of fleet of 30 Catalysts and 10 guardians v 1 bumping Mach and 40 catalysts they would not be able to save the freighter from being ganked in High sec. You like so many others have failed to realise that no one is saying that one ship should be able to defend itself against a 40 man fleet.
Vic Jefferson wrote:Okay, cool. Go live in null then. Nothing bad ever happens there.
I do live in null sec and I don't fly freighters. But High Five....
Pirating in 2005
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Christopher Multsanti
Bluestar Airlines
12
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Posted - 2015.10.02 07:59:43 -
[31] - Quote
It's interesting that people are defended this so hard because meh sandbox! According to them, the sandbox only exists because of high sec ganking.
Pirating in 2005
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Christopher Multsanti
Bluestar Airlines
12
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Posted - 2015.10.02 08:20:52 -
[32] - Quote
Tabyll Altol wrote:No. Get a bigger logi support.
-1
So 40 Logis for every freighter in high sec and tidi in every system. Well thought out response.
-1
Pirating in 2005
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Christopher Multsanti
Bluestar Airlines
12
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Posted - 2015.10.02 08:38:44 -
[33] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Christopher Multsanti wrote:Tabyll Altol wrote:No. Get a bigger logi support.
-1 So 40 Logis for every freighter in high sec and tidi in every system. Well thought out response. -1 3 will do.
Sorry. -3 then.
Pirating in 2005
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Christopher Multsanti
Bluestar Airlines
12
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Posted - 2015.10.02 08:40:39 -
[34] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:Christopher Multsanti wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:The only time I have seen a Freighter in nullsec (not a Jump Freighter, but straight Freighter) we killed it.
Actually, I tackled it with my interceptor as I passed it in travel just by chance. About 5 minutes later my fleet arrived (had already stood down from our roam, so quickly reformed) and we began killing it. However we were interrupted by a larger fleet, who also spotted it in travel, and they got the final kill and loot.
Freighters don't travel in null or low generally. The risks are much greater.
There might be situations within an Alliance's sov space where they feel secure enough to get a freighter to and from a jump bridge, but Freighters flying through null/low and using gates just doesn't happen because they are not very defendable. Seriously, any alliance big enough to defend one just uses a jump freighter, which is quicker, so less boring for the support, and much safer. Well done, you tackled a freighter in null sec and let someone else kill it. Like most people, you are missing the point. If jump freighters didn't exist, which they never used to, and you had to take a freighter 10 jumps through your own alliance space. You would still have better defensive options than you would in high sec. You can actively kill hostiles before they get anywhere near your freighter in null sec. You do not have that option in high sec. so in a nutshell instead of removing ganking lets remove system security, make everything nullsec, i fixed it for you :) most gankers are -10.0 anyway so they can be engaged anywhere, do you think your freighter in nullsec has any defence against the blops fleet that cynos on you from dscan immune covert cyno ship?
No. Hence why a support fleet helps
Pirating in 2005
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Christopher Multsanti
Bluestar Airlines
12
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Posted - 2015.10.02 09:45:29 -
[35] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Oh wow this is still going. Should probably show you this then
CCP Falcon, Community Manager.
Not a game designer or even senior game designer.
And are you saying because someone from CCP said it once it means it law for all time?
Yeah because CCP never changed their mind on anything. And that whole post is based on bringing guns to protect you hauler, which as we have said, doesn't help. Someone posted that quote on page 2. But thanks for the bump!
Pirating in 2005
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Christopher Multsanti
Bluestar Airlines
12
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Posted - 2015.10.02 10:09:30 -
[36] - Quote
afkalt wrote:I think we can all agree on the following:
- Ganking needs to stay.
- The current model is crappy and could stand to be fixed (bumps/webs are dumb and should be revisited)
- Changing the current model will be non trivial and probably not pan out as any of us expect, were it to happen
- OP is resistant to any form of work to ensure his safety
- This thread should have been locked on page 2
- Ganking needs to stay.
Can we close the troll down now, please?
I think we agree on not everything but a lot.
- Ganking can stay as long as you have a way to defend yourself better from it.
- The current model is crappy and could stand to be fixed (bumps/webs are dumb and should be revisited)
- Changing the current model will be non trivial and probably not pan out as any of us expect, were it to happen
- OP uses blockade runners in high sec.
- This thread should be a healthy discussion on replacing current bad mechanics with good ones.
- Ganking can stay as long as you have a way to defend yourself better from it.
I'll even update the title for you, as i was using it to get a reaction. Now we are on page 7, title revision deployed.
Pirating in 2005
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Christopher Multsanti
Bluestar Airlines
12
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Posted - 2015.10.02 10:17:15 -
[37] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:can you explain the positive affects this would have on the game? specifically the market?
You can make people just as vulnerable in high sec we be revamping the war declaration system. If CCP want's everything destoryable then they can make everyone war deccable.
You assumptions on the effects of the market are pure speculation and no one really knows what would happen to market if gankers had to declare war on those juicy freighter targets. Markets evolve and adapt.
Pirating in 2005
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Christopher Multsanti
Bluestar Airlines
12
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Posted - 2015.10.02 10:25:44 -
[38] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:but what about npc corps? everything should be wardeccable so remove npc corps, good luck just driving people out of the game by having no immunity, corps would just wardec everything they could and gankers would be just simply immune to any sort of criminal activity, that does not provide any sort of solution to your so called problem
You don't have to remove NPC corps but you eject new players from NPC corps and moving them to their races militia after one month in the game. Either that or they find/start their own corp. Even CCP agree that player retention is improved when new players join a player corp and stop flying solo.
As for players who leave their current corp. they go straight into their races militia.
Pirating in 2005
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Christopher Multsanti
Bluestar Airlines
12
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Posted - 2015.10.02 10:38:39 -
[39] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Christopher Multsanti wrote:Lan Wang wrote:can you explain the positive affects this would have on the game? specifically the market? You can make people just as vulnerable in high sec we be revamping the war declaration system. If CCP want's everything destoryable then they can make everyone war deccable. You assumptions on the effects of the market are pure speculation and no one really knows what would happen to market if gankers had to declare war on those juicy freighter targets. Markets evolve and adapt. The above argument is focused on removing high sec ganking. If we are talking about updating the mechanics of said ganking. then not much will change at all. But again, who knows. Also there will be positive effects on player retention if ganking is made fairer and less one sided. Thats a positive for cpp and the game right? The only threat haulers, miners and mission runners face in highsec comes from gankers.
Eve has wars. So not that's not the only threat. Do you know the figures on how many people in NPC corps? I don't.
Pirating in 2005
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Christopher Multsanti
Bluestar Airlines
12
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Posted - 2015.10.02 11:11:06 -
[40] - Quote
Some of the arguments against a change have been:
- Bring 20 plus logis every time you want to move a freighter through high sec
- Don't carry to much stuff in freighters
- Don't go to 0.5 systems
- Web your freighter and hope you don't get bumped before it warps
- The market will collapse if we stop high sec ganking
- The sandbox as we know it will end if you stop high sec ganking
Only one of those is really a decent suggestion and is currently being used but, as the video shows in the OP, Grath (one of the leaders in PL) did this and still got ganked. So really, webbing is just down to RNG. That's great game design right there.
Pirating in 2005
ER Advert for very first Alliance Tournament in 2005
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Christopher Multsanti
Bluestar Airlines
12
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Posted - 2015.10.02 12:22:40 -
[41] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote: there would be a significant "hole" in the sandbox where players could isolate themselves from other players.
There's a hole in my sandbox, dear Liza, dear Liza,
There's a hole in my sandbox, dear Liza, a hole.
Black Pedro wrote: You are wasting your time arguing for a change that has no chance of being implemented.
They said that Obama when he was arguing about gun control in America. Do you think he is going to stop arguing for it? Hell No!
That's right, I am the white Obama. he may not agree with my treatment of Minmitar slaves but I can guarantee you he would agree with my stance on ganking in high sec!
Pirating in 2005
ER Advert for very first Alliance Tournament in 2005
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Christopher Multsanti
Bluestar Airlines
12
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Posted - 2015.10.02 12:35:20 -
[42] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:You were more than happy to argue that you could have 40 guys clear a path for you in low sec and null sec but now half that number in hisec is too hard for you?
You attempt to belittle the arguments for keeping ganking but what was your argument?- not that its too hard to haul. Not that its imbalanced. Not that you dont have options. Oh yeah...it was just cause you didnt like it.
I am not trying to belittle anyone or anything. Just trying to show why I don't think the argument is not valid.
I used that argument just to show that you can make sure a path is safe in null sec before you undock a freighter, but, you don't need to move a freighter through gates in null sec anyway, cos, jump briges/jump freighters.
But it is impractical to take a 40 man gang every time you move a freighter in high sec. For congestion and for your mates saying "erm? i'm not going to help you with that boring ****"
Pirating in 2005
ER Advert for very first Alliance Tournament in 2005
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Christopher Multsanti
Bluestar Airlines
12
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Posted - 2015.10.02 18:52:43 -
[43] - Quote
Mag's wrote:1. It's already been pointed out to you, that you merely have to defer some of the dps. As baltic has also said, 3 is enough for this purpose.
3 Logis will not get the first cycle applied before your freighter is dead from 40 catalysts.
Pirating in 2005
ER Advert for the Alliance Tournament in 2006
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Christopher Multsanti
Bluestar Airlines
12
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Posted - 2015.10.02 19:24:52 -
[44] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:Christopher Multsanti wrote:Mag's wrote:1. It's already been pointed out to you, that you merely have to defer some of the dps. As baltic has also said, 3 is enough for this purpose. 3 Logis will not get the first cycle applied before your freighter is dead from 40 catalysts. Shield Logi will. Reps land at the beginning of the cycle. Also, I think you are grossly overestimating how fast destroyers can chew through several hundred thousand HP. A medium armor rep lands in under 5 seconds and reps enough to negate about 2 volleys from a Catalyst... which CAN mean the difference between life or death (I have survived on slimmer margins).
Did you see the video I posted in the op? 40 catalysts do 28k DPS, I am afraid you are a bit detached from reality if you believe 3 logis will stop a freighter from dieing.
Pirating in 2005
ER Advert for the Alliance Tournament in 2006
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Christopher Multsanti
Bluestar Airlines
12
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Posted - 2015.10.02 20:23:20 -
[45] - Quote
Mag's wrote:]Why are you still relying upon a vid from pre-module days?
Both that and the cargo, doesn't help your argument in the slightest. Not to mention the last ship, which quite frankly makes it all laughable.
Again reducing your cargo value, if that's what you mean, makes no difference to whether you get ganked or not if the gankers are having a slow day, as has already been proved by someone else in this thread.
You mean that last freighter that took a full 20 seconds to kill. And the main problem with logis and freighters, freighters have very little shield and armour which is what logis rep. So you're going to need minimum 15 logis to keep a freighter alive against 40 catalysts.
Pirating in 2005
ER Advert for the Alliance Tournament in 2006
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Christopher Multsanti
Bluestar Airlines
12
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Posted - 2015.10.02 20:24:13 -
[46] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Christopher Multsanti wrote:Mag's wrote:I have to ask, when did you buy that character? Mag's my friend I created this char 3 months before you did and almost a full year before you joined MASS. And probably like you, I have done it all. High sec ganked, been ganked, scammed (never been scammed), Pirated, killed BOB haulers in delve, FC'ed. I have done the lot. So please tell me how you would defend your freighter against a bumping mach and 40 catalysts? Cos If I am missing some fundamental I would like to know. A scout. The scout sees the bumping ship, and I dock up 1-2 systems out. There, ironclad defense.
So just don't go where you need to go. Cool.
Pirating in 2005
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